Education Improves Your Chances (and other myths of our generation)

Anonymous said...

This is yet another reason to avoid law school. If you are a 22 year old with zero debt, you have the dignity that comes from knowing you don't owe anyone anything.

Why ruin that by taking on a bunch of debt?

JANUARY 10, 2012 4:09 PM

 Anonymous said...

22 year olds don't think that way.....they are constantly sold the education improves your chances myth.

(from LawProf's "Interesting Piece of Evidence" comments)

-----------------------------------------------

      Anonymous said...

REALIST:

As an undergrad engineering major, I interned at a industrial research lab. My boss had a PhD and grumbled that all of the decisions about what he got to research were made by his boss, who had a MBA. That insight led me to earn my own MBA after engineering school.

While I was in my MBA program, our economics professor was explaining to us the concept of opportunity cost. He mentioned that those students who pursued a PhD in economics would never make the same money as the MBA students. Which prompted me to ask in class, "So the Economic PhD's actually failed to understand economics". My comment did not endear me to him.

Many of us working in industry have MS or MBA's that lead to well paying jobs across a wide assortment of careers. If you're not happy in your graduate program, take a look around you and see what opportunities may be awaiting you.

I still enjoy hitting my public library weekly to read up on my interests in history, culture, politics, science, etc. It's more fun, because it's unrelated to my job.

I now have a daughter in college, and what I told her was "If it's fun to do, they're not going to pay you much to do it."

January 6, 2012 11:42 AM

Pointless Credentials said...

I recently rethought our North American obsession with credentials when I saw this video about tribal people learning how to do dentistry in under two weeks.

http://itecusa.org/i-dent-video.html

Some people just have a natural ability to do things. Some countries don't seem to be so obsessed with the sheepskin on the wall.

January 7, 2012 6:32 AM

STEM Doctor said...

The politicians are still operating under the delusion that everyone must go to college. If this actually happens, I'm sure that teaching those introductory composition courses is going to become even more of a thrill for the English graduate students.

Anonymous said...

This reason points to a reality that is lost on most middle-class people with academic aspirations. 

It's hard for them to wrap their brains around the fact that their high school math teachers who eat tuna sandwiches in the teacher's lounge and drive beat-up cars to work every day could possibly be living more comfortably than someone with "professor" in their job title.

It does not compute.

In their minds, professors are in the upper middle class, drive European cars, live in the nice part of town, hobnob with other people who "matter," vacation abroad, have season tickets to the ballet, etc.

Even grad students buried up to their eyeballs in their dissertations cling to this idea. They almost have to believe it to keep them going.

When reality sets in, and you find yourself envying your old teachers with their tuna sandwiches (on whom you once looked with a certain measure of contempt), you realize how hoodwinked you've been.

January 4, 2012 9:27 AM

(From 100 Reasons Not to Go to Grad Schools' "75. You can make more money as a schoolteacher" comments)

Footnotes

In light of my last post, I must clear up a few things.

I am aware that the professions I examined the most (professors and lawyers) include many people with happy, healthy families. The problem is, these professionals were all born 20 to 40 years ago. I'll be a graduate entering today's disastrous economy and job market. Had I been born years earlier, I may very well have taken on the professorial or law track. It neither would have been as much of a financial risk, nor would it have put my goal of having a happy family in jeopardy. Unfortunately, these professions have truly become reserved for the leisure/upper class (and the incredibly lucky) and are no longer (relatively) risk-free means of scaling up the social ladder for the hardworking middle class. When you get out of school, hard work alone is just not enough.

Plus, the divorce rate for lawyers of these past generations has always been notoriously high.

I used to think that it would be beneath myself to take on less "prestigious," more common jobs. I used to look at my part-time job supervisors with snobbish elitism, saying to myself, "I'll never do these simple things for a career." I wasn't alone in this thinking--it's characteristic of my generation (see 5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation). Now I am noticing that these people lead relatively stress-free lives, and many of them have families. Furthermore, their jobs are nothing to be "ashamed" of (see Most Underrated Jobs of 2011). All occupations contribute to the functioning of our society in some form or another. It is many times the rich and "prestigious" who corrupt that functioning...

I am coming to terms with the sad reality that my majors (religion and East Asian studies) are not very well-valued in today's capitalist society obsessed with global competitiveness (this is emblazoned on the U.S. Department of Education's mission statement: "to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access"). If grad school, seminary or the translating field are not viable options for me, my BA is nothing more than a generic testament of my competence. (though teaching is not completely out the window for me, and I will talk about that later). A BA is valuable and I'm quite happy that I'll be earning one in a few months, but I must be open to alternative career choices that allow me to

1) live a comfortable life, and
2) raise a family reasonably well (time- and money-wise).

Granted, I am not regretting my decision to major in what I wanted to because I have grown, matured, learned a lot, have a much more open mind now, and wouldn't have met such wonderful people--think, not only would my professors have changed, but also my classes, classmates, and very dear friends.

I am also not discarding all my other interests. I also ideally want this career to be intellectually challenging, stimulating, respectable (though doesn't need to be the iconic elite job), isn't too ethically questionable (and so I'd really like to avoid corporations), and tests my abilities to a high degree.

Plus, I'm certainly open to forms of entrepreneurship.  An older coworker of mine told me that the people who tend to be happiest with their jobs are those who are their own bosses. They make the most out of their own talents and work on their own schedules, oftentimes in their own homes (or at least their own establishments). That's great stuff. G. Stoyalrov II, the guy whose YouTube video I linked in an earlier post on reasons not to pursue a Ph.D., advocates this himself, and from his profile and prolific online presence, it seems he's doing quite well. Entrepreneurship is risky business, too, but it is something I'm willing to pursue on the side as I become more financially independent with a stable career.

I'm stil figuring out what career would be suitable for me given these guidelines, but I have an idea or two and will talk about them in a post to come.

[addendum to part 2: depression in the law]

"...sometimes re-evaluating one's dream in the face of reality is a sign of maturity."

This comes from a comment of one of numerous people advising an aspiring law student to seriously reconsider his dream of being a lawyer (See the discussion here). At least for him, he is not one of the thousands of inexperienced, naive, and confused recent liberal arts grads. He actually has had quite a bit of experience in the legal field as a legal secretary and majored in legal studies. His dreamtalk and determination talk remind me of how my parents raised me: that if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything here in this country. Hell, that's how my family made it. We're one of the dime-a-dozen immigrant success stories, and yeah, it does inspire me to do great things when I reflect on my family's development here.


But back to this kid. He has a mediocre GPA and a poor LSAT score, even after several test attempts. He has anxiety problems, especially test-taking. Now, let's review these key points:
1) Law school admission is highly weighted on GPA and LSAT score, much like med schools with GPA and MCAT
2) In law school, the summation of your grade is determined by one or two cumulative closed-book, subjectively-graded exams per semester
3) Umm, debt?
4) Umm, terrible employment prospects for anyone outside (and even inside) T14?


And yet, he is dead-set on law school, ready to accept $100k+ in debt from a Tier 3 or 4 law school just so he can get into anything at all. Why is he posting on LawProf's blog and TLS (top-law-schools.com, frequented mostly by 0Ls, or aspiring law students; FYI 1Ls, 2Ls, and 3Ls are of course current law students in respective class years), then? He was just wondering whether he should settle for the Tier 4 or postpone his jump and study for the LSAT again in hopes of getting into Tier 3. 

And so I come back to the above-bolded comment. It's been taking a lot of strength for me to come to terms with myself.  Like this kid, I had often thought I would "win the lottery ticket" and "beat the odds" with my sheer determination. Throughout my life, my parents have taught this to me because we did beat the odds and have made it really well here in the U.S. And for me personally in my academic life, I have shown to beat the odds. Frankly, I didn't see why not study my ass off, save money, etcetera. All I would lose were some hours of sleep, social time. I had much better things to gain. The trade-off was worth it.


But are soaring debt and the prime years of my life worth the risk for an oftentimes depressing school experience and job (if I even get one)? By depression, I wish I were exaggerating. Studies have shown that on average, 9-10% of 0Ls are depressed (that is, overwhelmingly mentally healthy and optimistic), but by the end of the first year of law school, this figure goes up to 32%, and by third year, 40% . Furthermore, from a 2007 study by the American Bar Association, only 4 out of 10 lawyers said they would recommend the law to others, and less than 50% of lawyers reported having job satisfaction. We must consider that many of the people who come out depressed or dissatisfied must have been those who did not research enough into what they were getting themselves into. But still, these stats are something to bear in mind, along with the rest of the happy-happy-happy stats surrounding the current law market. 


Call me a dream killer, or call me a pragmatist. Unfortunately, times have been changing, and for recent grads who don't have $100k to throw around or aren't the children of a parent who owns a law firm (or have some other way of a secure attorney position), if you want to pursue law, you really need to think hard about it.


[Thankfully, the kid I mentioned earlier eventually did mention in the linked discussion that he will take some more time off to consider his future. I forgot to mention that he still has that job as a legal secretary making a decent $35k a year, so he's doing quite well in that regard compared to other yuppies. Good for him.]


And to close, I leave you with this gem that's far more succinct than me:


Eager law student (YouTube)

[and this happy picture]

Self-assessment, part 2: Law School?

Another track I am considering for myself is law school. I have done lots of online research and read some books, notably The Law School Admission Game and Should You Really Be a Lawyer?: The Guide to Smart Career Choices Before, During & After Law School. What my research lacks, compared to my grad school research, is talking with real practicing and non-practicing lawyers, law students, and other people in the legal field. And the most helpful bit of research to see if law school is right for me is to actually get my feet wet in the legal field itself.

As with grad school, there's a plethora of material out there that warns people not to go law school these days.

• Exposing the Law School Scam: quite extensive blog. A collaborative project.
• Inside the Law School Scam: a clean, unpretentious, articulate blog written by a law professor. Law schools and their professors, as you can see from my links, are often blamed for encouraging law school to students in order to rake in more money, but it seems this current professor strays from the flock.
• When Law School Becomes a Bad Investment: from the Washington Post.
• Is Law School a Bad Investment?: from Business Insider.
• Law School: As Bad As You've Heard: and always read comments from articles. Notably this one: "Graduated in the top 3% of class, top 20 school, law review, 5 years of biglaw, unemployed for 18 months, losing the house, and wife leaving.
• Think you’re safe? I did too." Okay, hope the wife wasn't leaving because of no paycheck, but damn. And he's not the only one with bad news.
• The Girl's Guide to Law School: this is written by a Columbia '06 grad who did get into BigLaw (six figures, work-crazy life) and other things. She started this rather extensive and beautiful site as a guide for women to get the most out of law school, along with several myths she (and numerous other sites) debunks. She also uses the right it's and its and has a smart, simply-designed layout, which all make me quite happy. It's useful to note these myths:

1. Lawyers Make a Lot of Money
2. Student Loan Debt is “Good Debt”
3. Law School Gives You Three More Years to Decide What to Do With Your Life
4. Life as a Lawyer is Exciting and Intellectually Challenging
5. Getting a Law Degree Opens Lots of Doors
6. You Can Trust a Law School’s Employment Numbers

To summarize: "the prospects for those legions of new lawyers have been grim, a fact hardly unbeknownst to them...in the past few years, young lawyers faced a glut of competition from other legal professionals; plummeting wages; a reduction in openings in and offers at big law firms; and cripplingly high student-loan debts. When the recession hit, thousands of young lawyers suddenly found themselves trying to work off six figures of debt in pay-per-hour assistant gigs. Granted, things are looking better. But the National Association of Legal-Career Professionals still cautions that "entry-level recruiting volumes have not returned to anything like the levels measured before the recession." 
(Source: slate.com)


It seems this material has affected the number of applications to go down in the past years, which I think is great.


And despite all of these sources, I'm still intrigued. As I said in the beginning, I must extend my research by talking to more people involved in the legal field itself.


I feel that my set of skills and interests (writing, research, analysis, reading, attention to detail, logical and deductive reasoning, argumentation, strong work ethic, etc.) align well with what it takes to be a lawyer. But what about my values? I'm not just talking about the moral skepticism of certain cases I might be forced to undertake. I'm also talking about... well, it's the same deal with my largest concern that stops me from going to grad school, which I'll cover in part 3.


In any case, I'll be talking with more legal folks, and I have been researching being a paralegal so that I can get my feet wet into the legal field without throwing away three years of my life and $100k+ of my parents' and my own money (and instead saving money and gaining valuable experience). This is the mistake that thousands of law students make. One of the books I mentioned earlier makes a great analogy to this ridiculous problem: would you buy a $30,000 car without first test-driving it? Would you put an investment in a $100-400,000 house without first stepping foot inside? Nonetheless, many students decide to go to law school because

• they have no idea what else to do with their liberal arts degree that's not "prestigious" or "respectable" or earns lots of money (lulz)
• their loved ones, especially their parents, expect them to and/or want a lawyer in the family as much as they want a doctor or an engineer (but too bad, you were too dumb to not major in the sciences)
• these loved ones, as sincere as they are, insist that their child is apt to be a lawyer based on only some obscure notions (e.g., Law and Order, John Grisham novels) of what it means to be a lawyer
• the students themselves have those obscure notions without ever setting foot in a law firm
• as with grad school, they want to ride out the economic recession by staying in school another three years (completely ignoring the mounds of student loans; fellowships are non-existent for law students and scholarships are hard to get)
• the myths outlined above by Alison

With spiky hair and blowing wind in an indoor court room!

...and so on. I pick these specific yet common reasons because they also apply to my initial reasons for considering law school, though I'd have to replace John Grisham and Law and Order with the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney video game. :3 "OBJECTION!" "HOLD IT!" and my favorite, "TAKE THAT!"

But like I said, different from grad school, I'm not completely giving up on law school altogether. I want to try being a paralegal or legal secretary first. I've also reasoned that, should I like the legal field after some experience, I can maximize my chances of "success" by getting a high LSAT score and going to a T14 school. I already have the GPA and recommendation letters set, and I'm sure I can write a good personal statement. 

At the same time, who knows? Even if I do like law, get in the top of my class at a top law school, and land a respectable job, will this lifestyle be conducive to my happiness? 

This all comes down to what makes me happiest, and consistently. And after much reflection this semester, from both my academic and social lives, I've come to realize... [HOLD IT!]

Part 3 awaits.